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Post  piker matt on Mon Nov 16, 2009 8:31 pm

hi iam just wondering if any body can help me out iam fishing a local res with pike in to over 36lb and i have only fished it three times up to now. the trouble iam having is that iam getting wot i think are pick ups where i get a couple of bleeps on the alarm and then the bait is dropped from wot i can gather a few years ago when word got out about the size of the pike in the res it got some serious hammer and has made the pike realy warey can anyone help me to put a few more fish on the bank thanks matt scratch scratch scratch

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Post  deadbait on Mon Nov 16, 2009 8:38 pm

what set up are you fishing sounds like the fish are feeling resistance are you fishing open bail arm ? Very Happy
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Post  noodle on Mon Nov 16, 2009 8:48 pm

piker matt wrote:hi iam just wondering if any body can help me out iam fishing a local res with pike in to over 36lb and i have only fished it three times up to now. the trouble iam having is that iam getting wot i think are pick ups where i get a couple of bleeps on the alarm and then the bait is dropped from wot i can gather a few years ago when word got out about the size of the pike in the res it got some serious hammer and has made the pike realy warey can anyone help me to put a few more fish on the bank thanks matt scratch scratch scratch

has that come from a carper by any chance?

are you on baitrunners how are you fishing it?
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Post  Scorpion70 on Tue Nov 17, 2009 12:41 pm

I had this problem when i fished Winterset a few years ago. The problem is a pike is a very clever fish and equal to a carps brain for learning.They feel resistance and think ey up this is tethered and drop it. The way i got round it was to free line at short distance using a very light bobbin(home made washing up bottle top) and for distance i used a free running rig again home made. I found the biggest bead i could find which was a sea fishing one,bored out the middle hole a bit more with a small drill bit making the inner diameter bigger. Then attached the smallest weight i could get away(1 1/2 oz) which was attached via a small curtain ring. The result a very low resistance running rig system and it worked. I tied some line from the bottom of the curtain ring to the lead at around four inches making like a paternoster(don't worry it wont tangle) with some 35 pound line and a linq clip attached at the lead end so i could change weights easily. There are modern versions of this rig from the carp tackle world,have a look in the tackle shops and see if you can adapt anything to suit.
And as a final piece of advise,sit next to your rods and hit any lifts or drops of the bobbin. My mate landed a 28lb fish from the same reservoir i fished by hitting a four inch drop.
Think about it if your bobbin moves a couple of inches and your fishing say forty yards out its likely that a pike has got your bait in its mouth and has swam a couple of feet with it. Don't know if you have seen any of the Korda underwater dvd's but try it your self. Lay your rig in a field around 50-60yds away with your rod set up as if you were fishing. Then pick up your rig and move away or to the side or even towards you and watch how crap the indication is that you get,you really have to move off quite a bit before you get any reasonable indication. And there you are stood in a field with all the kids looking at you and adults thinking that your mad and you have a revelation of how badly your set up it performing and you never go back to waiting for big indications and long runs.
Then transfer that to your fishing and you will be surprised how many fish you put on the bank by striking at small movement's on the indicator. Wink

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Post  MAD BAD ANGLER on Tue Nov 17, 2009 1:55 pm

are you sure that its pike picking up your baits, and not eels?

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Post  noodle on Tue Nov 17, 2009 4:00 pm

oh god another of the if it behaves in a field it happens in water

right best indication when not using a float in plain sight, by far is a big (4ounce upwards) lead on a free running set up and with braid the results get even better.

now add water pressure into the equation and you struggle to move fixed leads in the theoretical arc that can lead to no indication

it is imposible to move the lead without triggering and indication of some kind the use of front mounted rigid arm swingers, mono and fixed leads gives the worst results for actual indications at the rod end

pike are not carp. if your not seeing takes then your indication needs looking at

my reason for asking about baitrunners was a leading question going on to the method of indication


several reasons for this starting with floats both bottom end and pat styles through to the type of indication the chap is using

if he is using a fairly tight baitruner with a bottom end only float then as a pike tightens the line to the rod all of a sudded you get a big change in resistance pike lets go before you set the hooks

as with most methods of indication there are drawbacks

and one of the biggest ones is setting a true drop off up the amount of times they are set wrong is amazing.

and thats before we get onto eels trout perch etc giving us iffy takes

oh all the abouve is based on a nice clear lakebed if your fishing rocky weedy or water full of structure and flow then it only gets more complex
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Post  Bazz on Tue Nov 17, 2009 5:20 pm

Interesting this, specially after Sunday's forum fish-in. The Chap in the wheelchair who kept coming for a chat was Darren Bragg, he is a PAC member & happens to live on the street we fished. He mentioned Eels as a possible reason for us all getting finicky takes, also that the water is heavily fished & the fish get wary.

He said his mate fishes very light leads and virtually free lines in that water, showed Steve French's friend & I some of the fish he & his friend have caught, some impressive fish too...He knows I'm from Nottingham (i have written to him from our region, dunno why he doesn't go to your local region?) & also Steve & friend were not local so was happy to show us both, couldn't get him to show you Doncaster lads the photo's (did try). Rolling Eyes

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Post  piker matt on Tue Nov 17, 2009 7:14 pm

iam fishing with the bailarm open with the line tucked through an elastic band on the rod with an inline free running lead set up

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Post  noodle on Tue Nov 17, 2009 7:33 pm

piker matt wrote:iam fishing with the bailarm open with the line tucked through an elastic band on the rod with an inline free running lead set up

bin the inline or fish it semi fixed and im none too fond of fishing with the elastic either there is too much option fo rline to 'stick'

are you using hangers or drop offs?

if its hangers use the elastic band on the rear stick and the hanger under the rear rest get the clip up against your spool and to get it spot on tuck the cord/chain into the elastic band and slide it down until the cord is tight

for leads can you throw 4 ounces or at least 3 ounces with your bait?
if so get hold of some roberts run rings/ solar do some but cost a fair bit more and fish it free running

look Matt i dont know how much piking you have done so dont take any of this wrong please but have a look at this site

http://www.hooklinks.co.uk/pike/navigation2/pikeframe.html?=dysonrig.html

its all basic stuff and there are a few dodgy things on there (nothing major just simple errors in photos like the way the ghetto blaster is set up (pointing at the water rather than the angler Rolling Eyes ))

if you feel resistance really is an issue try the dyson rig, it works just as well for deads as lives and is perfect for fishing over weed shelves etc, its just not the best casting thing in the world

a better bet but i cant find any pics of rigs on it is this

http://www.pacgb.co.uk/

plenty of good info on it even if you dont want to join (im a member)

feel free to myther away either on here or by pm
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Post  noodle on Tue Nov 17, 2009 7:59 pm

http://www.pacgb.co.uk/tips/index.htm

found the riggy bit just scroll down and look through
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Post  robh107 on Tue Nov 17, 2009 8:18 pm

there is only one rig i truly trust for offering zero resistance to a taking pike.... click the link noodle posted above here and find the simple rigs link under the sidebar headed "fishing tips".
on that page scroll down until you see the rig with no float attached (3rd one down i think) this is the rig i nearly always fish with a 22" 30lb wire trace.
a couple of little tips....... use either john roberts or fox run rings+beads to attach the lead and stop it from sliding over the swivel. also at the rod end use a drop off indicator
set to hold the line as light as possible (but heavy enough to offer enough resistance to hold against current/undertow etc) tightened up to the reel spool instead of the elastic band. and finally dont be afraid to use a light lead i.e. 1oz... the pike will hardly notice it when it picks up the bait because if you set the drop off correctly it will only take a very light pull to release the indicator and give the pike free line to run.
oh one more thing lol... it may seem obvious but fish with the bale arm open and make sure your reel spools are filled to within 1mm of the spool lip, that way if you are fishing at considerable distance then there is more line still on the spool adding to the circumference and creating less of a lip for the pike to pull the line over
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Post  nightwatchman on Sat Nov 21, 2009 6:40 pm

Hi fellas!
My 1st post Wink

I've been having the same issue with dropped pick ups and was wondering what you guys think of the Fox drop off indicators?

Unless I get a hard take I've noticed that sometimes the indicator will bang up against the reel and the fox indicator will fail to open up and let the line flow off the open spool.
Seems to be taking a lot of pressure to do the job its meant to be doing!! Evil or Very Mad

trouble with dropped pick ups can anyone help? PAC168
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Post  Bazz on Sat Nov 21, 2009 7:31 pm

http://pacgb.websitetoolbox.com/post?id=2576808


Scroll down to #15 and read Mark Barretts advice. He is an esteemed Pike Man & develops equipment for Fox. Very Happy

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Post  Andy Webster on Sun Nov 22, 2009 8:35 am

Bazz wrote:http://pacgb.websitetoolbox.com/post?id=2576808


Scroll down to #15 and read Mark Barretts advice. He is an esteemed Pike Man & develops equipment for Fox. Very Happy

For those who cannot access the PAC forum, Mark Barrett said:

"Funy thing here, I was talking to a bloke on the banks of the 16ft the other day, and he was slagging off the gate opening clips, saying that they never opened etc etc. I then took him down to mine and showed him the correct way to set them up, and just how easily they opened when set correctly.

I bet in 99% of the occassions its angler error that is making them not work. The gate opening drop offs should be set behind the lip of the spool. if it is in front or level, it wont work, behind it, they work like a dream.

Cheers Mark Barrett"

I have edited Mark's post to keep to the relevant parts.

Andy

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Post  nightwatchman on Sun Nov 22, 2009 6:54 pm

Thanks for the feedback Andy, Wink

Does anyone know why there are 2 types?
Has the gate system superseded the clip type?
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Post  Bazz on Sun Nov 22, 2009 8:03 pm

Fox claim their Gate type works better than the earlier plastic type, as line (especially braided) runs on the metal bar on the gate. The best i have come across are the Solar ST Steel ball end type, as used on Billys Backbiters, which are ACE & i now use..

Thanks Andy... of course, non PAC members cant access the forum, i didnt think about that! Razz Rolling Eyes

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Post  Bazz on Sun Nov 22, 2009 8:10 pm

http://billysbackbiters.blogspot.com/

The drop off at the bottom of Steve's blog is designed to be used with a front indicator, like the Fox ones you have, Nightwatchman. Theyre very good, too... Cool

p.s its the weighted arm, shown as currently unavailable, owing to supplier issues, ive just discovered

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Post  nightwatchman on Sun Nov 22, 2009 8:43 pm

Thanks for the link bazz Wink

ah ha!
The gate ones work best with 'braid' I should have realised! Very Happy
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Post  Bazz on Sun Nov 22, 2009 8:48 pm

I think there is a friction issue when braid is used through any plastic clips, whereas the metal gate or st steel balls allow free running.. The gate type will work with mono, too.. The gate on the Fox is spring loaded, it is a mild steel spring and does rust after time. The Solar ball clips are tension adjustable too, though the Fox type can be rotated & is allegedly adjustable

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Post  noodle on Sat Nov 28, 2009 3:20 am

hah well ive handled other peoples gate clips from fox and the amount of tension needed to release the clip varies masively

solar or matrix ball types all day (ptfe nudge nudge wink wink)
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Post  Andy Macfarlane on Sat Nov 28, 2009 3:01 pm

More stuff I've ranted about in the past.... scratch

Whenever anyone says to me 'dropped runs' these days, the first thing I have to ask is, how heavy are your weights. You'd be surprised how many pikers say something along the lines of, "Oh about an ounce, I'm not fishing that far out". I tell them the distance is almost negligible. I often fish 2-3 rod lengths out, with 4oz of lead. I don't need lead for putting the putting the bait there. I could swing a free-lined bait that far underarm no problem but then I'd have problems with indication, especially if there's any wind or tow, so a weight is in order.

The reason for using so much lead is fairly simple. I don't want it to move an inch, no matter how fast a pike takes off with my bait, or in which direction it travels. An ounce of lead or 2 oz of lead even will simply move and as the angle of the run increases. The greater the side-force applied to the lead, the greater the chances are the weight will shift.

From the pike's point of view, something changed there. It might not understand resistance but it knows something just isn't right and drops the bait. It can swing both ways. A marked increase or decrease in resistance can and often does make a pike drop the bait and all you have to ladle into, is fresh air. Keep the weight pinned to bottom and all your pike feels, is a bait. Some worry about the line-clip being too tight, imagining it might change the resistance. As long as the swinger head is tight against the reel, you have a tight line and you have sufficient weight, the pike won't notice the pull from the clip. It's what happens once the pike is moving away with the bait, that matters.

Think of it like this. You look at an unknown object and guesstimate it's weight. You don't actually know how much force is required to pick that object up. A pike doesn't know that either. A dead fish is a dead fish, so the resistance from the clip is neither here nor there.
Back to you again. You have now picked up your object. You have it in your hand. It may have been lighter than you imagined, it may have been heavier. It's really not that important. The fact is, you now have it. Now imagine for second that the object suddenly increases/decreases in weight. How peculiar would that be? I think that is enough to make the pike drop the bait.

To aid matters, I use large bore run-rings. I think they're actually John Roberts Leger-Rings. E.S.P. and Fox do them too. I want the line to travel through the weight as freely as possible. I do not want my lead to move an inch, once the run starts. A run-ring simply aids that freedom. Use a paperclip to add the weight to the run-ring. It's enough to take the brunt of the cast but it's a perfect 'rotton bottom'. A slow, steady pull will straighten the clip and dump the lead, rather than breaking the line and leaving a baited trace behind.

If you're using anything less than 3oz, regardless of the distance, increase the weight of your lead. If you aren't using run-rings, I suggest you do. The difference will patently obvious.

If this doesn't help, then you're all doomed.... Very Happy

Best Of Luck....Anders Van Der Poach.... geek


Last edited by Andy Macfarlane on Sat Nov 28, 2009 7:23 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Post  nightwatchman on Sat Nov 28, 2009 7:01 pm

Nice write up Andy,
Agree with everything you've said and I love the paper clip tip. Wink
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Post  stephen abbott on Sat Nov 28, 2009 7:08 pm

I totally agree with you Andy, i would like to add that the use of a lead under 3oz will result in a lot of pike being deep hooked.

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