Missed runs ????? Help

Hello,
Being a bit of a novice you might think after reading this, What a K**b!! but weve all gotta start somewhere. Been fishing a local fisherie. I managed to loose 8 fish in one session and land only one, which was a massive 4lb ish dint bother weighing it. Im keen on hitting fish pretty early as want to avoid deep hooking at all costs. My drop back indicator would happly drop back to the floor, alarm sounds, i unclip the drop off arm wait for the fish to then take line and hit it. Nearly always i feel the fish and after a few turns of the reel and a stead thud thud as the fish tries to escape, they are gone. Is they are small fish? am i hitting them to early? im using 3.5lb Prodigy plus rods are they too stiff ? all these have been said to me at work. Any suggestins or advice would be much appreciated. Thanks.

Hi Micky,

1st bit of advice, don't name fisheries on the forum in view of people, the name will be edited off & the topic may be locked.

Pike do have harder mouths than most & you don't always get a good hook hold, i recently banked a decent fish & it threw the hooks, luckily inside my landing net. There are better qualified people here to advise you on hook/rig choice than i but missed runs would seem to be a fairly common occurrence & it is especially frustrating when its the only bite/run of the session

hi and welcome to the wonderful world of pike fishing.....
from the sounds of things you are doing a couple of things wrong.......
1- try and time your runs so that when the pike starts taking line you start counting to 30, and when you get to 30 wind down until you feel the fish's weight and lift into the fish firmly, i say lift because if you strike hard then you stand much more of a chance of ripping the hooks straight out of the fish's mouth
2- 3.5lb t/c rods are a bit on the heavy side for the task in hand.... i'd say somewhere around 2.1/2 - 2.3/4lb would be much better for the same reason as above, with the rods being softer you shouldnt put as much strain on the hook hold during the fight.

How are you fishing mate? Floats? Ledger? Freelined? With more info mate we`d be able to give you a better answer.

Mickey,

Under no circumstances wait 30 seconds before hitting a run, as you will end up with deep-hooked Pike.

There is also no need until they start taking line before hitting them, as they can and do swallow baits without moving off.

As soon as you get an indication point the rod directly at the fish and wind in the slack until you feel the weight of the fish and then lift firmly into it. By striking runs quickly you will lesson the chance of deep-hooking. This may cause you to miss the odd run but it is the way to go as Pike are a fragile fish.

As a newcomer to Pike fishing you may need to look at your rigs and/or hooking arrangements, or it is possible that if you are fishing a pressured water the pike may well be dropping the baits. There could be several reasons why you are losing so many fish.

Try and find an experienced Pike angler to take you and show you the basics as in rigs, striking runs and handling/unhooking.

Have a look at the link below to the Pike Anglers Club.....there are plenty of articles on there that will help you.

http://www.pacgb.co.uk/

Good luck
Adam[u]

hmmm now let me see.... i've been piking for 15 years and in all the time i've waited 30 seconds i've hardly ever had a deep hooked fish, most are hooked in the scissors or thereabouts.... so why should i not advise someone new to this to do exactly what i do??
yes occasionally the pike will eat the bait without running.... BUT THATS WHAT A CAREFULLY SET UP BITE INDICATOR WILL SHOW AND IT IS THEN POSSIBLE TO TIGHTEN UP WITH THE ROD AT AN ANGLE TO THE BAIT (LIKE A FEEDER ROD) AND FEEL FOR THE PIKE MOVING AS IT TURNS THE BAIT IN ITS MOUTH, THEN YOU WIND DOWN AND LIFT LIKE NORMAL IF THE PIKE DOES NOT MOVE OFF

Robh,

With a correctly rigged bait the Pike should have the hooks / hook in its mouth as soon as it picks the bait up. By waiting 30 seconds you are just ensuring that the Pike takes the bait and hooks deeper into the throat area.

What is your reason / justification for waiting 30 seconds???

Adam

Hi there

Firstly welcome mate

Well i can see there are a lot of different views on your problem and i personaly like robh107 do not strike straight the way, i always leave it for 30 seconds or so and just feel the line moving the rod away from the fish slowly and try and determine what is happening if the fish feels there and slight knocks on the line, then i always as the others say lift into the fish never strike, lifting sideways as you have more movment sideways.

Another thing is look at your hooks what gauge wire they are as there are a lot of hooks that are heavy gauge and are harder to sink into the pike. Also try changing bait sizes.

I would also say your rods are a little heavy i use prodgy deat bait rods or my prodgy carp rods 2.5 they seem to be fine and work for me.

i have been piking now for many many moons and these work for me but keep trying dont give up.

my hook arrangement is as follows: 2x size 6 drennan super carbon trebles mounted in tandem around 3-4 inches apart, i place the top treble (the one mid trace) into the root of the bait's tail and the other goes as far as it can down the fish's flank (with an average size bait i.e around 6" this places the second treble between the pectoral and dorsal fin of the bait).
i make all my deadbait traces 22" long to avoid bite offs (as opposed to the PAC website diagrams where the trace is no more than 12-15" which in my opinion is just way too short if you get a large pike taking a bait quickly.... and believe me i've had a greedy 20lb pike run like a jack and after landing discovered the pike to be more or less kissing the swivel with the top treble near the back of the mouth and the bottom treble a couple of inches down the pikes throat.... dont believe me?? next time you get a 20lb'er measure the distance between the front of the mouth and the top of the throat with a tape measure)
i dont agree with instant strike rigs where the bottom treble is in the head of the bait as i feel that this hook arrangement is more likely to incur a deep hooked pike if the pike moves off as above and the angler is slower than normal to react.
now, taking into account everything i have said above, this is my justification of waiting 30 seconds in play-by-play form of how i imagine a pike behaves when it takes a bait (on a free running ledger rig with 2oz weight, run ring plus bead, open bale arm and drop off indicator)
1- (0 seconds of indication) pike finds the bait, and picks it up by the head. it then turns to move away with the bait, tightening up to the rig and pulling the line from the clip on the drop off indicator causing the alarm to sound. (just before the line is pulled from the clip you may see a few twitches on the rod tip as the pike tightens to the rig)
2- (3-4 seconds after the line is pulled from indicator) the pike starts to move away or "run" with the bait, still gripping it by the head and starting to turn the bait so it is pointed in the right direction for eating
3- (5-25 seconds after the line is pulled from indicator) the pike is steadily running with the bait, gradually moving it further into the mouth
4- (25-30 seconds after the line is pulled from indicator) the pike now has the trebles somewhere in line with the "scissors" i.e the corners of the mouth..... it is at this point that you wind down steadily until you feel the weight of the pike and lift into it, pulling the trebles to the corner of the mouth and gaining a secure hook hold.
now, i can honestly tell you 2 things which have occured in 15 years of hitting runs as above:
1: i have hardly ever deep hooked a fish
2: i hardly ever miss a run unless the pike in question is smaller than 3-4lb or hasnt turned the bait properly
so, adam, since you were so kind as to explicitly ask for justification.... IS THAT ENOUGH FOR YOU???

robh107 wrote:my hook arrangement is as follows: 2x size 6 drennan super carbon trebles mounted in tandem around 3-4 inches apart, i place the top treble (the one mid trace) into the root of the bait's tail and the other goes as far as it can down the fish's flank (with an average size bait i.e around 6" this places the second treble between the pectoral and dorsal fin of the bait).
i make all my deadbait traces 22" long to avoid bite offs (as opposed to the PAC website diagrams where the trace is no more than 12-15" which in my opinion is just way too short if you get a large pike taking a bait quickly.... and believe me i've had a greedy 20lb pike run like a jack and after landing discovered the pike to be more or less kissing the swivel with the top treble near the back of the mouth and the bottom treble a couple of inches down the pikes throat.... dont believe me?? next time you get a 20lb'er measure the distance between the front of the mouth and the top of the throat with a tape measure)
i dont agree with instant strike rigs where the bottom treble is in the head of the bait as i feel that this hook arrangement is more likely to incur a deep hooked pike if the pike moves off as above and the angler is slower than normal to react.
now, taking into account everything i have said above, this is my justification of waiting 30 seconds in play-by-play form of how i imagine a pike behaves when it takes a bait (on a free running ledger rig with 2oz weight, run ring plus bead, open bale arm and drop off indicator)
1- (0 seconds of indication) pike finds the bait, and picks it up by the head. it then turns to move away with the bait, tightening up to the rig and pulling the line from the clip on the drop off indicator causing the alarm to sound. (just before the line is pulled from the clip you may see a few twitches on the rod tip as the pike tightens to the rig)
2- (3-4 seconds after the line is pulled from indicator) the pike starts to move away or "run" with the bait, still gripping it by the head and starting to turn the bait so it is pointed in the right direction for eating
3- (5-25 seconds after the line is pulled from indicator) the pike is steadily running with the bait, gradually moving it further into the mouth
4- (25-30 seconds after the line is pulled from indicator) the pike now has the trebles somewhere in line with the "scissors" i.e the corners of the mouth..... it is at this point that you wind down steadily until you feel the weight of the pike and lift into it, pulling the trebles to the corner of the mouth and gaining a secure hook hold.
now, i can honestly tell you 2 things which have occured in 15 years of hitting runs as above:
1: i have hardly ever deep hooked a fish
2: i hardly ever miss a run unless the pike in question is smaller than 3-4lb or hasnt turned the bait properly
so, adam, since you were so kind as to explicitly ask for justification.... IS THAT ENOUGH FOR YOU???

Not really Robh.

The main problem with everything you say above is your IMAGINATION!!!
Nothing in fishing is as clear-cut as you quote. You are making a lot of assumptions from the point a Pike picks up the bait.

By telling people, inparticular newcomers to Pike angling to wait that long before hitting runs is taking us back to the good old days of dead Pike due to deep-hooking.

Please move into the 21st century with your Pike fishing tecniques.

Adam

adamscott wrote:
Not really Robh.

The main problem with everything you say above is your IMAGINATION!!!
Nothing in fishing is as clear-cut as you quote. You are making a lot of assumptions from the point a Pike picks up the bait.

By telling people, inparticular newcomers to Pike angling to wait that long before hitting runs is taking us back to the good old days of dead Pike due to deep-hooking.

Please move into the 21st century with your Pike fishing tecniques.

Adam

i have no problem whatsoever with people having different opinions, but does the old addage "if it aint broke dont fix it" spring to mind.... what is YOUR justification for being so condescending to a fellow angler?? or are you a fishing god and only what you say goes adam??

I always pull into a run / bite as soon as possible as the thought of a deep hooked pike makes me cringe !!

I would rather miss a few that have one swallow the hooks

Adie

adie1200 wrote:the thought of a deep hooked pike makes me cringe !!

Adie

i agree with you there adie, but i fish like i do so i dont miss as many runs, i've tried hitting the run as soon as the pike picks up the bait and it just leads to too many missed fish for my liking, but like i said i dont deep hook pike so i dont understand why i am getting such stick from adam for doing something he and no doubt a few more people may do differently and for giving a newcomer some advice on techniques

here you go mickyrob, the following is a link to a diagram of the rig i use (the wire trace i use is 22" long and a bomb/weight of around 1 1/2-2oz):
http://www.pikeangler.co.uk/articles/ledger.html

Firstly "MICKYROB" I am also a novice and miss a fair few runs! My hubby (Mad bad) has been fishing for 30yrs, he has told me over many many many hrs lol x how it all works and given me the benefit of his experience! However i didint get none of it until i started spinning, its sort of fell into place as i felt the fish on the end of the line although i used to feel i was fighting for my spinner back lol. Now i still love spinning and panic when i here my alarms go off on dead bait but land more than i lose. Hope the lads on here help you, and all your fish in 2009 are MASSIVE!

Mickyrob wrote:Hello,
Being a bit of a novice you might think after reading this, What a K**b!! but weve all gotta start somewhere. Been fishing a local fisherie. I managed to loose 8 fish in one session and land only one, which was a massive 4lb ish dint bother weighing it. Im keen on hitting fish pretty early as want to avoid deep hooking at all costs. My drop back indicator would happly drop back to the floor, alarm sounds, i unclip the drop off arm wait for the fish to then take line and hit it. Nearly always i feel the fish and after a few turns of the reel and a stead thud thud as the fish tries to escape, they are gone. Is they are small fish? am i hitting them to early? im using 3.5lb Prodigy plus rods are they too stiff ? all these have been said to me at work. Any suggestins or advice would be much appreciated. Thanks.

dont worry too much it about one water ive lost every fish ive hooked on there for the last 4-5 years finally landed one before christmas out of the water, what am i doing wrong nothing as my gear works everywhere else its just an unfortunate set if instances that happened

yeah thats happened to me too on more finicky waters.
oh i forgot to add another little thing.... (referring to the advice i posted earlier in this section) when using smelt/sprats the pike tend to eat them a little quicker because they are slightly smaller.... if you do follow my advice then knock the amount of time you wait down to 15-20 seconds for the above 2 baits

robh107 wrote:

adamscott wrote:
Not really Robh.

The main problem with everything you say above is your IMAGINATION!!!
Nothing in fishing is as clear-cut as you quote. You are making a lot of assumptions from the point a Pike picks up the bait.

By telling people, inparticular newcomers to Pike angling to wait that long before hitting runs is taking us back to the good old days of dead Pike due to deep-hooking.

Please move into the 21st century with your Pike fishing tecniques.

Adam

i have no problem whatsoever with people having different opinions, but does the old addage "if it aint broke dont fix it" spring to mind.... what is YOUR justification for being so condescending to a fellow angler?? or are you a fishing god and only what you say goes adam??

Condescending............Maybe you deserved it???

Fishing God................I wish

I answered this thread only because you were telling a newcomer to Pike fishing to wait that long before hitting runs. That advice is not only out-dated but does the Pike no favours at all.
Decent Pike fishing is getting harder to find every year and anything we can do to protect it can only help.

adamscott wrote:

Condescending............Maybe you deserved it???

Fishing God................I wish

I answered this thread only because you were telling a newcomer to Pike fishing to wait that long before hitting runs. That advice is not only out-dated but does the Pike no favours at all.
Decent Pike fishing is getting harder to find every year and anything we can do to protect it can only help.

no, i did not deserve it at all because my methods may be outdated in your eyes, but for my piking they have stood the test of time with no ill effects to the fish..... so if i advise a newcomer to fish the way i have for years then what business is it of yours to pull apart my methods.
IF you had just posted alternative advice i would have no problem, but to put it the way you did i.e "under no circumstances follow the advice of another experienced angler" smacks a bit of "everyone must march to the same beat" which i will never do because my opinions are as individual as the next person.
i do agree that good pike waters are getting harder to find, but that has nothing to do with my methods, and everything to do with people still having the notion that pike are vermin and should be killed when caught and using that as a motive to do just that.
i wonder how long you have been fishing?? and how many big pike have YOU caught??
because i have caught more than i can remember.... INCLUDING 10 pike over 20lb AND 2 captures of a pike over 30lb.
my advice to you would be to leave my methods alone and concentrate on your own because no one will change a method that works for me and no one has any right to tell me i am fishing wrongly just because they dont agree.

I can see this getting a bit heated !! and i thought we were all friendly on here

Come on lads shake hands and forget it its not worth falling out over

Adie

lets carm down boys,agree to differ.both veiws are to put fish on bank safe an back into water safe so lets just say YOU DO IT YOUR WAY AN I DO IT MY WAY.an lets catch some fish in newyear

adie beat me to it

thanks adie and nick, thats exactly what i've been saying all along i.e everyone fishes differently. and for the record i'm just responding to what adam is saying.... i have no problem with different methods

robh107 wrote:

adamscott wrote:

Condescending............Maybe you deserved it???

Fishing God................I wish

I answered this thread only because you were telling a newcomer to Pike fishing to wait that long before hitting runs. That advice is not only out-dated but does the Pike no favours at all.
Decent Pike fishing is getting harder to find every year and anything we can do to protect it can only help.

no, i did not deserve it at all because my methods may be outdated in your eyes, but for my piking they have stood the test of time with no ill effects to the fish..... so if i advise a newcomer to fish the way i have for years then what business is it of yours to pull apart my methods.
IF you had just posted alternative advice i would have no problem, but to put it the way you did i.e "under no circumstances follow the advice of another experienced angler" smacks a bit of "everyone must march to the same beat" which i will never do because my opinions are as individual as the next person.
i do agree that good pike waters are getting harder to find, but that has nothing to do with my methods, and everything to do with people still having the notion that pike are vermin and should be killed when caught and using that as a motive to do just that.
i wonder how long you have been fishing?? and how many big pike have YOU caught??
because i have caught more than i can remember.... INCLUDING 10 pike over 20lb AND 2 captures of a pike over 30lb.
my advice to you would be to leave my methods alone and concentrate on your own because no one will change a method that works for me and no one has any right to tell me i am fishing wrongly just because they dont agree.

If you going to quote me then do it correctly.....don't add words on. I did not aim anything directly at you

I have not told you what to do, what I did do was try and put a newcomer to the sport on the right track.

I did ask you to justify leaving the strike for so long, which you failed to do in spectacular fashion by quoting how you imagine a Pike takes the bait......not really based on fact is it. And for someone who claims to be an experienced Pike angler of 15 years you don't seem to have learnt a great deal or be able to move forward into the 21st century.

You seem to have taken this personally for some reason...........or maybe you are just trying to defend out-dated techniques that you continue to use even though thousands of other Pike anglers and clubs that try to protect Pike and Pike fishing have not used or reccomended for nearly 20 years.

You carry on putting the Pike you fish for at risk, but please do not give your acvice to newcomers to the sport (or fish waters near me).

(I've fished for nearly 40 years seeing as you asked)

Thanks lads.

I've only just seen the other posts.

Happy New Year to all.

Adam